Dr. Tim Miller hosts another episode of the Rebound podcast with Tatiana, Titareva, a PhD student studying at JMU, and making a temporary home for herself in Virginia, away from her home in Latvia. Tatiana talks about the "flow of life" that has taken her through ups and downs, which she tries to take as it comes. An experienced international student and traveler, she also talks about what it was like to adjust to American culture while also adjusting to the way that the COVID pandemic was reshaping everyone's life, the world over.
Follow us on social media to stay up to date on new podcast episodes! @JMURebound
Dr. Tim Miller hosts another episode of the Rebound podcast with Tatiana, Titareva, a PhD student studying at JMU, and making a temporary home for herself in Virginia, away from her home in Latvia. Tatiana talks about the "flow of life" that has taken her through ups and downs, which she tries to take as it comes. An experienced international student and traveler, she also talks about what it was like to adjust to American culture while also adjusting to the way that the COVID pandemic was reshaping everyone's life, the world over.
Follow us on social media to stay up to date on new podcast episodes! @JMURebound
Dr. Tim Miller
Welcome back everyone to the Rebound podcast. Today we have Tatiana Titareva joining us. Tatiana could you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you've been involved with on campus, or to tell us…what you do here at JMU?
Tatiana Titareva
Sure. So my name is Tatiana, as you've mentioned. I'm coming from a very small European countr, Latvia, which is bordering Russia, Poland, and Ukraine, and I'm here at JMU for three years, and I'm doing my PhD in Strategic Leadership Studies by researching adoption of artificial intelligence in higher education.
Dr. Tim Miller
Okay so talk to us about the, the journey to get to JMU. Like when did you find out JMU was even a thing? Why this program? Sort of talk us through that, and we'll go back farther in your–in your journey before that, but tell us the JMU–getting to JMU and choosing JMU process story.
Tatiana Titareva
It was a very funny story because neither JMU or even the US was on my world map for continuing my studies, because I'm a global Citizen and before that, I used to live in huge developing countries working, studying, and Etc., and I was doing my PhD back home in Latvia, and I was also working as a head of IT Department back in the business school, and I went for a conference in Spain where I was presenting something related to International questions of higher education in Europe, and it was funny how I presented something–I forgot about this–I went to enjoy Valencia, a very beautiful town in in Spain, and in the evening my colleague, who is a huge introvert, he didn't want to use a dinner ticket in an amazing place in in Valencia, and this ticket–this dinner–was 17 euros– approximately 70 dollars. And I said, “okay let me just enjoy your dinner, you know, what was meant for you,” and I went to that. I went there, I sat down I–and then I'm seeing four people just smiling at me, and for you to understand, where I'm coming from, smiling doesn't mean anything good. We perceive people as of “what do you want from me?” or “are you crazy?” That's how we interpret it in our culture, and I was like, I don't know those people. I understand they're smiling at me, being polite, I need to smile back, but I mean, “what do you want from me guys?” and they call me by first name, and I'm like, I don't know them, but…theyI know me, that's good enough. So I sit down, and we speak with those four guys for like three hours, and in the end of this, uh, of this evening, somebody is saying (whom I'm not going to mention is saying), “oh you should come to JMU and do your PhD. … I smiled, and I said to myself (I never told it to the person), and I said, “oh never!” but I was smart enough just to take an email, and something changed, and half a year after that meeting in my life, and then I remember, I was speaking with my German colleague–and for you to understand, Europeans in general–be it Western Europeans, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians from the south–they're very, very direct, and Germans are specifically direct, and then I said, “you know, I've got enough opportunity maybe to consider going doing PhD in the US, and specifically JMU, and then my German colleague told me, “you're fool for not using this opportunity,” direct text, that's how we speak back on the European continent. And, and then just to prove to him that I'm not a fool, I've applied to the school, and that's how I'll end it up here in August 2020.
Dr. Tim Miller
Okay so then let's talk about what you expected when you got here versus what reality was.
Tatiana Titareva
…yeah the US is quite famous in terms of, we know more about you than you know about rest of the world just because of the movies, of the culture, of the politics of debate in global politics, and Etc. so I kind of knew what–I thought I knew what was coming to, uh, at the same time it was a little bit challenging because, number one I came to the part of the US where people communicate in a different way. There's a lot–there are many implicit messages that me, as a very straightforward person, in the beginning was struggling to grasp. It took me a couple of years to start reading the messages. Secondly, it was COVID. it was mid of COVID–August 2020. So I didn't really meet people. Most of the people I knew for the first nine months were online. Hardly anybody was ready to meet and speak, and Zoom, as much as it is great, it's never–it's not the best place to build a relationship when you meet somebody first time, and so it was challenging to understand what people mean, what they don't mean, what you are, kind of, is considered to be polite to say, what's not polite to say, so I had some cross-cultural miscommunication challenges, and people were–Zoom is not as open, as–nobody can tell you,”listen, here we are not doing this way, here we are not saying this way,” so it was a little bit challenging in a sense of the location of the country, style of communication, also location of University. In bigger cities people are more, kind of, you know, more direct, more straightforward. Here it was slightly different, but, and I respected them. By now I already like it, so…I kind of thought that I knew what is the US in terms of culture, in terms of…you know, pop stars, in terms of language, and all this stuff, but when you land here, especially during COVID, it's like a triple kind of challenging. About the studies, I was pleasantly surprised, I would say, about the personal student-centered approach to students. Back home we used to say “student-centered” but when you come to JMU, you discover what's really student-centered.
Dr. Tim Miller
Interesting. So it's funny–I have–my best friend's from England, and I went home with him years ago. It was when Jerry Springer was a talk show here. It was a very–you know–Sensational. So I was out with him one night and everyone found out that I was American and suddenly in the middle of this like, bar/club place, Jerry… [they] started like this chant because everyone assumed that I was someone out of Jerry Springer. So it is interesting to me how much our culture sort of, and our sort of, entertainment at least, maybe the worst of it ends up in the rest of the world versus the other way around, so I think that's an interesting point. Talk about…how did you manage through those challenges that, you know, the communication, where we're located…like, can you name some specific challenges and then how you managed them?
Tatiana Titareva
I want to be respectful to a culture, because I understand…the same as other people, if they would come to my country they would say, “you are doing things in a different way,” but we have to understand that's how we have, like, a huge background behind us–why we behave this way. So I went because this is my fourth degree on the–in the fourth different country on the third different continent, so it's not that I didn't travel in my life, and having European passport it's easy to travel, you know, we are big Travelers. So I kind of assume that I knew the world, but every time I enter the new environment, for long term I go through the same cultural shock. The first one, usually, is “resistance”–saying, “no you guys are doing the wrong things,” not understanding that it's about me, and I'm a guest in this place. Then the second one was “acceptance”, and then the third one, which I'm starting to do now, is “integration”, and it took me at least two and a half years plus–building my own Community where, number one, I would feel normal, because I kind of changed myself, and number two, who would understand both my perspective–why I behave or say something in in my own way–as well as, they would be able to explain to me why people here behave in a certain way.
Dr. Tim Miller
So one of the authors I love is Brene Brown, and she talks about “Fit” versus “belonging”. I know if you've been part of one of the book clubs, but can you talk about the..sounds–almost earlier on you're maybe, trying to “fit” but now you're getting into “belonging”, or you're just who you are as being accepted and you don't have to adjust–is that accurate? Do you–how does that play out for you, number one and…?
Tatiana Titareva
I remember doing that uh Renee Brown book club. We've discussed it with you–we have to understand–if we are going somewhere which is foreign to us, in all possible ways we still have to adjust. There's no way not to adjust, but I agree with you. One thing–and I believe I've also voiced it last time–that you kind of have to preserve yourself, and be able to express yourself in a new environment according to the behavioral Norms of this environment, and I would say, understand those red lines–any society has red lines–understanding red lines. Which you shouldn't cross, and also a very useful thing is–I remember when I was in China, living in China, and I couldn't understand for half a year why people are spitting on the street. They're like, in planes and shops, on the street, and everything…and then I remember, I met–in Shanghai–I met a person from Canada, and he taught me a very important lesson in my life. Ask a question–don't judge people, but instead ask the question “why?” and then he told me a story, and I don't know whether it's a true story or not, but this story helped me to sell to myself the idea, and when I looked at the behavior of people which is normal for them, and they behaving like this for 5,000 years…so I was like, “okay now I understand why is …and it helped me to decrease my level of judgment, and accept it the way it is. I'm not going to change people around me,
Dr. Tim Miller
So the–I really appreciate the red lines concept, and I wonder if we can go into that a little bit more, and one of the things I'm thinking about is that your story can be helpful for students that, maybe, are going abroad, or going to a different culture or Community after college. Can you talk about how you engage with a community to figure out where those lines are, and, you know, what is the–where are those barriers or boundaries? How do you find that out? Like if I'm going to a new country I've never been to before, how do I find that out without running into the lines? And that's the only way–like, how do you know they're there before you run into them or trip over them? Your experience with this
Tatiana Titareva
Yeah it's a great question and again, uh, on one side I can tell how to do those things, but in the end of the day, we still do cross those lines, and that's the best lesson we get, and we're like, “okay this is not, you know, this is electricity for us don't touch it next time,” but I mean, number one what I would suggest–to speak with people. This will help me because, at least for years in India and China, and it's like radica– like it's much more easier to adjust in the US than, let's say, in totally different kind of environment, and what helped me to survive there and have a great experience was, number one, I used to pick out people from my own culture who used to live in that country for a long time, and they were explaining me two realities by … in our culture we–it's not acceptable to behave this way, but there it is, because, so–they prepared me in advance by saying, “don't get shocked about this; don't get shocked about that; don't get shocked about…” because wherever we go, we–we usually get shocked. Even if we go from one extremely advanced place to another advanced place, you would always see those cultural and behavioral differences. So I would say those friends really helped me. Number two: it's always good to have a very clear goal in your mind why you are here. I mean, I understand sometimes it's like, “I came to have fun,” and then just keep it in mind, “I came to have fun,” and create a community that helps you to have that fun. In my case it was like, I'm here for doing my PhD, which will help to escalate my career on International arena later on. Number two, I would suggest–but here you have to have skills, and I believe experience–to watch the movies of those countries. Especially, let's say, the US is easy for us–anybody To watch movies in any possible language, and the movies, between the lines, show the cultural norms That's what one MBA Professor from the US from Wharton taught me once. He said,”watch the movies of those countries and try to analyze not what they say, but how they behave, and then try to analyze with the help of resources, uh, reasons.” And number three is just to be observant and respectful, trying not to push, and I'm not saying I'm great in this. I'm also doing these mistakes, and I'm 36, so it's not that I've been born yesterday, and still I'm doing those mistakes, but every time, I remind myself, “try to be respectful and to answer the question why people are behaving this way, even if it's crossing your personal Red lines”
Dr. Tim Miller
So how much time do you have left in your program and your time in the U.S?
Tatiana Titareva
As much as you know, PhDs it's very difficult to ask PhDs when you are done, but I mean my current idea is–I'm almost done with my classes, and it's left dissertation, which is like, the most challenging part of, so it's at least one to two years
Dr. Tim Miller
Okay so that means you've been here about two years and you've got one or two years left. What do you want to do before you that time is done? Do you have a JMU/America bucket list of things that you want to see and do and experience?
Tatiana Titareva
I believe it's maturity. I mean, I remember myself in my early 20s where I was saying these are 10 things I have to do you kno… with maturity, the most inflexible people, the way I was, become more flexible, understanding much more things than just making to-do lists, uh, so answering your question in terms of myself, I don't think I have anything extremely concrete. I think it's just staying calm staying and focused because PhD does require a huge amount of focus to do what I've come here to do and be open-minded [about] what's up–what's coming -next, because I would say for myself the most important would be not to stick to my initial plan– what I wanted to do after I why I came here, because conditions change in the world as we know. Today we are going to school; next day everything is closed. Today there is a peace in the world tomorrow; there is a war, and in my case it's a little bit challenging to come back home, knowing the situation, so I would say to be open-minded and to look for opportunities, in terms of professional opportunities, in terms of social opportunities, in terms of positive and not so hard lessons as I got before, so kind of going with the flow
Dr. Tim Miller
Okay I think my last question until you answer in a way that makes me want to ask you a follow-up is “what advice do you have for students that are either going into a new community, going through a hard time, just…what…what are your sort of words of advice you want to leave with people?”
Tatiana Titareva
I would say my biggest challenge –and it's despite the fact that I've lived I've…I know how to adjust being minority myself in my own country. Like, I know from the very beginning that in your family you have one Traditions, you have one language. As soon as you go out, you have a totally different environment, but still, despite the fact that I had this all experience from…from very early childhood, I still struggled here. But again it was COVID, and external conditions–what I didn't do from the very beginning to understand who I am,I mean to identify, not to understand but to identify my basic features, my basic values, and try to attract people with the same values, and now let's say worldviews, because there are no good or bad people. It's just about being these people with whom you feel absolutely normal, and with whom you're progressing, because you see the difference. There are people around you, but you are mismatching, and there is kind of–you're not developing yourself. You're not–it's not helping you to integrate into something that is not naturally yours, so in order to integrate that community-building and understanding who are your people, I would say, would be the first step– and I Know It Takes–I remember I've heard this advice from one of our University's VPs during one informal meeting, and he was like, “you need to build community, you need to build community.” I was like, “how I'm going to build it? Give me a blueprint:step number one, two, three…” you know where, um, and then he, and then I was like,”okay let's just …and let it be, but then you need to start doing something understand, like in my case, it was funny how I started to build my current Community. I just found somebody by similar last name, understanding that this person or their relatives have come from the same part of the world, or from the same region. I message that person and that person said, “listen I moved on but I have another friend…” That person introduced me to that friend, and through that person we just started, you know, the community started understanding–having intention and doing something for building this community, not expecting that the world is going to help you. I mean JMU is like– my school is amazing! School…strategic leadership studies–it's a real capable of listening. They're really capable of helping people at JMU, have been very supportive and at the same time–I mean, you have to do yourself…
Dr. Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah it's interesting. I was talking to someone yesterday and they had a college-aged student they were talking to, and the college-aged student said, “you know, I'm just not getting the support I need,” and the person was like, “I'm giving them every– mean I've never supported a student as much as I'm supporting them,” and it–and sometimes you've got to figure out how to support yourself too, and do for yourself… That's great. Any other final words or thoughts you want to leave with our audience before we wrap up today? Anything else on your mind that you wanted to make sure you could share that I didn't ask you about?
Tatiana Titareva
I mean the last message, I mean– firstly I appreciate our conversation and I could share something from a different cultural perspective from a more graduate student perspective– somebody who has lived, seen ups and downs, and I know that even the deepest down eventually will come… up. It's a very natural flow of life. As much as it seems that today, life is miserable, there will be tomorrow–there should be tomorrow, and you will see that it's improving. I appreciate this opportunity, and number two, I just wanted to highlight that I understand it's very difficult when you haven't been outside your country, but people here–as much as I sometimes hear people complaining, and saying, “this is not helping, this is not working, this is that…” and I'm like, “do you have some International experience to understand that you're living in one–and I would say in the most organized, Advanced country in the world?” These amazing higher education infrastructure–as much as it costs a lot–where you are served like queens and kings, and I'm telling it from perspective of being, like, part of the best schools in the world, with amazing infrastructure. There is nothing similar to the American infrastructure of higher Ed…and and it's very important to be grateful, and if you feel that somebody is not doing something for you–try to go out of this country and see it's like. Sometimes I tell to my sister who has done her degrees in the UK, and I'm telling how our professors are treating us, how discussions are taking place in a class and everything, and she looks at me and, like the UK and the US in ways are similar–very different, but at the same time…and she looks at me and says, “what!? We've never had it– I come to the class, I listen to the lecture, I take my notes…” I believe that higher education in most of European countries–the way how we are heard here how we are served here and how we are helped here–as much as sometimes it might seem too less, it's everything in comparison.
Dr. Tim Miller
Yeah. Well Tatiana, thanks so much for taking the time, um, we want to thank everyone for listening to the Rebound podcast,and hope that you all will get in touch with us so you can share your Rebound story. So everyone take care. We'll talk to you soon. Go Dukes!